Episode #3. Audience Growth with Colin Campbell


Guest of the day: 

Colin Campbell, a Director of Marketing for Sales Hacker.

Having worked as the Senior Director of Content Marketing at Brafton inc., he was an acted managing director of a portfolio of 180+ clients, representing over 50% of the agency’s revenue. Colin uses his expertise to grow the Sales Hacker audience. He is a strong social media expert and is also a host to Sales Hacker webinars.



Sales Hacker, The Leading Community For Modern Sales Professionals


What will you learn?

  • Why Outreach.io has the highest adoption rate
  • Four disciplines for execution
  • Tips about Linkedin algorithms


Michael: Colin, I had the pleasure of talking with your head of content for Sales Hacker, Kathryn Aragon. We actually talked extensively about the content, so having you on the call, I actually wanted to check more about actual marketing behind the content and the way you guys distribute the content, and about sales, because something that I didn't discuss with Kathryn was the sales, and she mentioned that you primarily focus on all kind of partnership content like webinars with partners and that this is the main where you guys are making money. Is that about right?

Colin: Yup. We make money when people sponsor webinars. But the way we approach the sponsored content is actually more or less the same as the way we approach unsponsored content. Just because you paid us to publish something or host a webinar with you doesn't mean that the content can suck. We hold really high standards. Yeah.

Michael: And how does it work? So we approach you to set up a webinar or something. We set the topic for the webinar, the agenda. So can you kind of tell me more about how does it work in general?

Colin: Yeah, sure. So a lot of people sign up because we're owned by Outreach, a lot of our sponsorships with partnerships with Outreach. So for example, one way that that would happen is if you sponsored Outreach's Unleash event, which this year is in early April I believe, or in 2020 is in early April. Your sponsorship, your booth at Unleash might come with some extra packages, webinars or content or podcast sponsorship for Sales Hacker. So we use it as a way to make partnerships with Outreach even more attractive.

Michael: Understood. Okay. We actually are using Outreach extensively for our team actually. And you know, there are quite a few tools in this space that are very similar to Outreach. What would you say why Outreach is different? Why Outreach is more attractive for medium-sized businesses than the other tools out there?

Colin: You know what? I don't know if I'm even the right person to ask. One of the things I really like about being owned by Outreach is that we still operate relatively separately. I know that one of the things that we hear back often, even though I don't work directly on the Outreach product or the Outreach marketing team, one of the things I hear often is that Outreach users have the highest rate of adoption of the tool, compared to any of our competitors or even some of the more adopted other sales tools like even Salesforce, we have better adoption and we also have like incredibly low churn on the product too. So I really think it just comes down to how useful and how well designed and well thought out the product really is.

Michael: If it's okay with me asking, what's the churn rate right now?

Colin: I don't know off the top of my head

Michael: Is it more than 15%-10%?

Colin: It's very, very low. It's like unnaturally low. Yeah.

Michael: Kathryn and I talked more about the content, right? And I know that I actually been, you know, I'm a kind of a regular reader for Sales Hacker as well as I'm following your podcast that you're hosting.

Colin: Oh, thank you.

Michael: Yeah. So what's the difference between the webinar and the podcast, because in a way it's very similar from the content perspective, but what's your take on it?

Colin: There are some similarities. Yeah, I think the biggest difference is that our podcast is run by Sam Jacobs, and Sam, if you or any of your listeners haven't listened to the podcast, Sam is probably the best podcast host that I've ever heard. He's up there with some of the podcasts that I listen to, like Radio Lab or Freakonomics. He's just so smart and articulate and he has amazing conversations. So I think that when I listen to the podcast ...and the other thing about Sam is that he has a bulletproof, I mean truly incredible network, and so the guests, the caliber of the guests on the podcast is really, really high.

You don't get to hear really intimate interviews with Mark Roberge every day or Chris Voss, some of the people who really have set the tone for modern sales and he knows those people. And so he gets to bring them on and then actually hold conversations with them at a level that's incredibly high and high quality. On the webinars, we try to do something different and we try to focus on actionable insights for reps, for sales leaders, for sales operations. And it's less so about modeling or finding out about the career path or experience of our guests, and more about them teaching something that they know to the audience. People come to our webinars to learn something new that they can do differently starting today to make their sales process or their sales skills better.

Michael: So would you say that the podcast has the type of content that is more entertaining, so people are listening for the pleasure or to entertain themselves, and the webinar is more kind of educational type of content. That about right?

Colin: Yeah, that's kind of the way I think about it. I try to think about them both as being entertaining, but also highly educational. I think the podcast is definitely more inspirational and motivational because a lot of the things that there are actionable insights and tips and tricks you can take away from the podcast, but a lot of the things that are covered are things that would shape your career trajectory over the long term. They're not necessarily things you can go put into place tomorrow, but it's the kind of advice that if you listened to it and adhered to it over a long period of time, it will vastly improve your career prospects.

Michael: Right. Interesting. So what's actually the CDA? What's the KPI for the podcast? Do you need to hit a certain number of followers or that people need to click on the link and subscribe for something, or purchase a book or webinar? How does it work in terms of the actual targets, like economic targets for podcasts?

Colin: I think it's easy to get to focus on metrics. With like a blog, for instance, you've got Google Analytics. There are all the metrics in front of you so you can focus on all those things. With the podcast, you really can't find out that much about how much people listen to it. The feedback and kind of our metric for the podcast is the feedback that we get from listeners, so we don't focus too much on numbers. We know that it's a branding play. We do like to see that people are downloading it more and more, streaming it more and more over time, but we're much more interested in just having the ability to bring great, excellent sales career insights to people in another way. If somebody doesn't want to subscribe to our blog or doesn't want to attend webinars or follow us on YouTube, then they have the ability to get the podcast. So we just...

Michael: How many listeners do you guys have in total right now?

Colin: So it's hard to say. Just that you know with podcast metrics as you know, you don't always get a totally accurate picture of what your listener base looks like, but our podcast has been downloaded 300,000 times so far in under a year and a half.

Michael: Wow, that's a very good listenership and ...

Colin: It's big and it's still growing.

Michael: I've hit a similar web plugin on your website, and I saw that you have about 200,000 readers per month for the Sales Hacker. So the podcast is 300,000. Okay. And then what's the most popular platform for the podcast for you where people listen to your podcasts? Directly from the website or ...?

Colin: Mostly iTunes. We do put it on the website just because we're a community for B2B sales professionals, so a lot of people are engaging with us, listening to us, reading our content in between meetings at work at their desks. So we wanted the podcast available on the blog. But most people still listen to us through iTunes or Stitcher or something like that, and a lot of the times it's during their commute.

Michael: You know Colin, one of the things that I wanted to chat with you about is the actual director of Marketing KPIs or targets. Because when I hired my Chief Marketing Officer, it was kind of challenging for me to have clear goals for the marketing team because they are not in sales per se, so I cannot say you need to hit that kind of target in terms of bringing in new clients, whereas they also are not in other departments. So what we did, we actually set up three different goals.

We set up the goal in terms of actual tasks or targets in terms of execution of the content, like a certain number of blog posts, a certain number of podcasts or case studies or kind of something that we can measure and then we can know kind of the to-do list. We also have a different kind of goal that is related to actual tasks as a number of leads or registration that we need to get to the website. And the third one is the actual conversion into closed deals. And then now when we see that once we executed the whole kind of lists of tasks, did it impact the whole conversion into leads and sales? Are we doing the right job there? So how does the KPI for you look in that way?

Colin: That's a really good framework you guys have. We did something really similar. We are a little bit different. We've got a really amazing head of partnerships, Scott Barker. So he owns all the relationships with our partners and he's been doing it for a while. So he really has all of the leads that he could ever need and all the relationships that he could ever need. And, we're at a point where more people are asking us to sponsor webinars or sponsor the podcast than we can accept. We're very fortunate to have that problem that we need to select carefully the partners that we choose to work with. And that means that I can spend my time focusing on just growing our audience. So as a director of marketing at Sales Hacker, my focus is only really in getting bigger, but we use... have you heard of the four disciplines of execution?

Michael: No. Tell me more about the four disciplines of execution.

Colin: It's kind of similar to what you were describing. So it kind of seems like you've come up with it, but it's a goal setting and execution framework from Franklin Covey, and basically there's a couple of things that I won't go into, but the gist of it is that you pick the thing that if you could only do one thing, it's the thing that you would want to improve. And for us, it's returning visitors, because we're a community. We want to make sure that people don't just find us, that they find us and then keep coming back and we can help them grow their careers, their sales skills over time. So we look at returning monthly users.

We call that our lag measure because it's not something we can influence directly. It's something that's the outcome of other things. For you, it sounds like it's basically revenue or leads, but the lead measures that we mostly look at are organic traffic, still our biggest acquisition channel, email traffic, because that's where most of our return visits come from, from our community and newsletter, and also just our total subscribers. Like we want to see the people who are actually active, engaged in our subscriber list growing.

Michael: And do you also manage the recirculation rate or the average number of pages read by the user during one visit or something like that?

Colin: Yeah, of course. And we're lucky that we don't see that changing too much but we do keep an eye on all of those important engagement metrics like bounce rate, pages per session. I really like sessions per user as well because that shows that they're getting used out of something. We have a lot of resources on our site that are the kinds of things you might want to bookmark, like pipeline templates. Let's say you don't have a CRM and you're just starting up. We have pipeline templates, we have cold email templates and cold call scripts. The kind of thing that if you're a rep, maybe even a sales manager in a small company you would bookmark and come back to again and again. Those are the kinds of problems we want to solve. So we spend a lot of time looking at increasing sessions per user.

Michael: And so while talking about the different types of content and return users, have you guys thought about monetizing the content, not just with webinars but also having other kinds of funding like a paywall or premium content for premium subscribers. I mentioned this to Kathryn and she said that while there was tug there but we didn't pull the trigger on this one, so what's the story behind it?

Colin: It's not out of the realm of possibility and we don't feel like we need to settle on a monetization model and stay with it forever. We're a pretty nimble small organization, and we know that we can change quickly to suit our user needs, which is really what it comes down to. If there was a way that we can start a paywall or monetize the content in another way that would actually make it better for our subscribers or our members, then we would do it. So far it doesn't seem like we found a way that would actually improve the user experience, so we aren't doing it yet. How do you think about that? Cause I know a lot of recent publications, that's the way they're going. So when you arrive on like Fortune.com or one of those websites with a paywall, how do you think of that as a user?

Michael: Well actually I am originally from the media publishing business. So I worked for like six years for a company dealing with publishers in 75 countries around the world. And modern publishers are struggling with monetizing their content because people don't want to pay for the content. Everything wants to be for free and everyone is just pissed off with the advertising because the advertising is everywhere. So publishers are looking at different ways to make sure that we can get the subscribers, but in the same way, we'll still be somewhat free or that we still can get an audience.

And three to five years ago, there was a surge of interest for Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and other platforms, social platforms in terms of the readership. But a few years ago when Facebook changed the algorithm, a lot of publishers went out of the business because of that. So I think that the idea was to come up with one to five articles for free and then have a paywall. So that you can engage with the user, show with a clip of content, but in the same way you can grow your readership.

I personally think that platforms like Sales Hacker, when you guys are sharing a lot of super useful and interesting insights that are actionable because right now there are a lot of blogs, a lot of sources that offer content, which is good, but it's just content for the sake of content. Whereas the actionable content, actionable data, actionable insights are rather rare nowadays. So when you offer a list of call templates, or when you offer tips for a salesperson who just started that they can use, I think that this is something that is very useful. And if I have access to a library of some kind of content or that list of call templates based on the industry or displayed by the location or based on the market size, different scripts - inbound/outbound, methodologists, and so on and so forth. I think that I would subscribe and pay for that kind of content if I received regular updates on that.

Colin: Yeah, that's something we hear. You know, we survey our subscribers and our members every year and we have heard from several people every year that they would be willing to pay money for what we do. And one of the conversations we've had at our side is it would actually increase the perceived value of our content if we were to charge for it, or even put a paywall up after five free articles or something similar. So we do think about that, but we're so mission-driven. We really want to make every B2B sales professional's job easier for them. We want to make people better at their jobs and we still think for right now, the best way we can do that is just to leave everything as accessible as possible. And luckily we have the revenue stream from the sponsored webinars that yes, like if you joined a sponsored webinar, you're added to a marketing list or a nurture campaign, but the content of that webinar is worth joining for. It's like a mini sales training. You're not joining to get a pitch. So I think that's a trade that our audience is still willing to make, and if that allows us to keep all the rest of what we do totally free and ungated and accessible, right now that still feels like the right way for us to go. I think we're lucky there though. We're not like every other publisher.

Michael: Do you think that because you aggregate a lot of content and you publish a lot of stuff on a regular basis, sometimes it's difficult for new readers to engage with the content because it's so scattered so that you don't know whether...? For me personally, I would like to get on the website and see a section of the most popular, the most trending, something that is out of this world that I can go to, I can read and I can learn. I think that premium content per se, people perceived it as a section which you need to pay for, but you know that the most quality of content is there. So the most actionable content is there because I personally think that there are two different types of education - more traditional education, which is converted to online education where you can go to Coursera or anywhere where you can buy a course and then you can train on the course. And there are a lot of different platforms like Sales Hacker, where you guys are offering educational content, but if I don't put my dollars into that, I think that this is more like, Oh, okay, I read it. It's interesting but I don't perceive it as something that I can follow. So if I am going to be paying for something, then it will say, okay, this is interesting. And I think that a lot of people right now that are super busy, they actually appreciate following Sales Hacker and having one, two or three articles per week or per day, which I can quickly read for 5, 10 minutes, learn something new and then move forward with my job. And I think that having more communities like Sales Hacker about marketing, about development, about operations, hiring people would actually help not just salespeople in general but also other entrepreneurs and business people to advance in what they're doing.

Colin: You're definitely right that one of the challenges for somebody who's new to Sales Hacker, at least in the past was finding out where to start and where you want to end up. For a long time, we were kind of operated like an encyclopedia. We would just publish if we knew it was really good and worth reading, we would publish it and then it was up to the user to go and kind of dig that out of our website.

So a lot of that came down to really just design and user experience. And just in June, we finished a redesign and relaunched the website, which does have a few of those features rolled out and we have plans to improve that more. Shout out to Algolia! If you don't know them, they're a site search. It's amazing, customizable and personalizable. You can personalize the search results if somebody is an SDR and they come and read sales development content again and again and then they do a search, you can serve them results that tilt towards their recognized area of interest or maybe even their industry. So that's something we rolled out, and we also do have a section on the site now that has a couple of our "Best of" articles in a few different categories like leadership, research that we've done, sales strategies and tactics, but there's still more work to be done there for sure.

I mean, we have thousands and thousands of pieces of content and it's a lot to search through, and one of the things that we are actually working on now is like if you are a new subscriber, in the past normally you would get a great little welcome email from our founder, Max Altschuler telling you a little bit about what Sales Hacker is, then you'd basically be in our newsletter. You would just get the same content as everybody else. Now we're building a welcome flow that it runs off of a survey. So take a little survey, tell us who you are, then everything from there on out is much more segmented for you and personalized for you. We go out of our way to give you some of our best content. Some of the things people seem to get the most use out of right upfront. So we're trying to decrease time to value and provide more defined user journeys through little features like that. But yeah, it's definitely a work in progress for sure.

Michael: That's an interesting approach, by the way, and while you were telling me about this, I was thinking that it's very similar to what we built here at Belkins from the perspective of hiring you and training you because when you just start being an SDR or a sales executive, you want to have this very clear guide like Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Step 4, Step 5 and what we are trying, we are trying to aggregate the content that we are releasing as well as our internal scripts and guidelines to have a library like a very detailed onboarding checklist with all these steps the person should take.

So what I think is that would be really interesting to have that on Sales Hacker when I start this sale, and then I have this very basic information, then more advanced, then more sophistication, and so on and so forth, and then some tips and tooltips and something like that. That should be very interesting.

Colin: Yeah. I think that almost anybody's learning path can benefit from a little bit more structure. The trick is, especially when you're managing a community of like 135,000 sales professionals, how do you make sure the structure works for as many people as possible, without making it so vanilla that it's plain or boring or just not interesting enough? And a lot of that for us comes down to having the right data, which is why we built a survey right into the onboarding. It's an ask. It's one more thing to do for our users, but we really think they'll get a lot of value out of it on the backend.

Michael: Right, right. Yeah. So, Colin, I appreciate the very interesting approach and I think that the more data you have, the more user-friendly you guys will be, and the more targeted the content and more valuable content will be for your readers. I wanted to also quickly touch base about the role of the content in B2B sales, because my company, we specialize in outbound sales and outbound sales is a more actionable type of sales, when you would just knock at the door, get ahead of your prospects and then start kind of conversing, and the role of the content in the outbound is very limited compared to the inbound sales, and content strategy.

While looking at different types of content, like blog posts, case studies, webinars, podcasts, testimonials from clients, different how-to pages, guides, books, can you structure top three types of content that you feel will be most beneficial for young entrepreneurs to start with, and that they are not that budget-sensitive, so that's their undoing from day one?

Colin: Right. So where's the best bang for your buck if you're a young entrepreneur? Where do you start to get short term gains out of something that's easy to produce?

Michael: Right.

Colin: Well it depends a little bit on your audience, but in general I would say if you're a B2B business and you need to sell to other businesses, the best type of content that you can produce that's the easiest is just LinkedIn posts or even just LinkedIn comments. You don't even really need to create your own posts. But if you spend some time on LinkedIn every day - I try to block out half an hour just at the start of every day - and I get on and I look for posts that are interesting to me and I leave comments of my thoughts. I do a couple of searches for people who may have interesting content and connect with them with a personalized message. That over time we'll have the biggest impact, especially for young entrepreneurs. I guess aside from that, the next best thing you can do is create written content. When you spoke with Kathryn, our head of content, she talked to you about the process she uses to make sure the written content actually has an impact?

Michael: She had mentioned something briefly, but we didn't get in-depth into this, so if you want to cover that real quick.

Colin: Sure. Yeah. So here's like a crash course for anybody who doesn't know how to get results from written content, like in a blog. It's easy to write something and have it do nothing for you, but here's what you can do. So you're having sales conversations. If you're a young entrepreneur, hopefully, you're the first seller of the business. So think about what's your prospect's biggest pain point or challenge or question, something they always ask you. Go to Google and search that thing and if there are other people writing about that thing, then that's a good topic for you to write a blog article about. So here's what you do.

Your search for your question. You go to the first result in Google. You open up that page and you get a piece of paper out and a pen and you go through the page and you make a little checklist. You take the kind of an inventory of the topics covered in that page. So you're taking notes of like what are the subheadings, what are the questions that are answered, what are the tips that are given? And you do that for the first five results on the Google search results page and then you've got a list, a big inventory of all of the things that people might want to learn when they searched that question. That's your outline. So you can reorder, you can restructure that checklist in a way that makes sense to tell a story, but those are all the things that you should cover when you write your article.

Michael: Right. And then what should you do in terms of the content distribution? Where do you post that content - on LinkedIn, your blog, Facebook, LinkedIn company page? I heard that you can still go and start answering questions on Quora. You can start kind of, but you need to do that system because the competition in Quora is also kind of tough. So some businesses had been in Quora for years now.

Colin: Yeah, I personally think that trying to do every distribution channel isn't always worth it, because like you say, you might spend 10 hours trying to answer questions on Quora or get your content out there and just have it not be visible if there's already a bunch of answers to similar questions from other thought leaders and maybe they've been up there for years and years and they have more comments or responses or likes. So I would say play to your strengths. If you have a strong personal network, take your content and ask people one by one to share your article on LinkedIn.

If you've got a big LinkedIn following, definitely publish it on LinkedIn and message people in your network and ask them to comment on your article, share it, like it, react. If you have a big email list, go there first. Don't just send the content out. Ask people to do something with it when you send it to them. Ask them to leave a comment, share it with their network, respond back and tell me a friend that you know that would also appreciate this content and then send it to that friend. So just start with your own personal strength. If you try to build a new distribution method from the ground up as an entrepreneur, it's just going to be a time suck. So go with your strengths first and then try to build on your weaknesses later.

Michael: Interesting insights. According to LinkedIn's algorithm, if I sent you a message or say congrats on the work anniversary or happy birthday or something like that and you respond to me and if we are in the connection list, then you will see my content first on the page, on your newsfeed whenever you browse it. So the algorithm works that way. So that is why people should be more social on LinkedIn. They need to endorse other people's fields, to leave comments, to wish a happy birthday or congrats on their achievements at work, to be more social and that you will be appreciated by LinkedIn algorithm, and then the more content you create, the more people will be engaged with your content. That's just the way it works.

And now the interesting insight is that whenever you post an article on LinkedIn, never include the external link because then your viewers will go there. So you'll always need to have a native LinkedIn link, so first, you need to post an article and then share that article with your posts, rather than posting something on your blog and then sharing the blog article because then the views will just go down because now the algorithm will not let you go through with your viewership.

Colin: Absolutely. Those are great tips. The other thing you want to think about is...well, there are those two things. If you post on LinkedIn and people are commenting, that's awesome. That's the most important thing for the LinkedIn algorithm. They want to see true engagement and conversation on their platform. So if your LinkedIn as a platform people are having conversations, that make you happy. So when people comment on your posts, at least in the first hour, try to respond to every comment and start more conversations. Ask questions that would require the person to give something other than a yes or no answer. Yeah, that helps a lot. And then the other thing is just in general.

LinkedIn is not for selling. If there's one thing to understand for any entrepreneur, if you're the guy or the girl and you connect with someone and pitch them, it will never ever work and it will waste a lot of your time and people will hate you. So if you use LinkedIn to learn and when you connect with people, say, I genuinely thought this thing you said was really interesting. Can you tell me more about that? And you're honest intention is just to learn and share your insights, the good things will come. All the best things - my biggest posts on LinkedIn, the times when I've grown my connections the most - have been when I've just spent a lot of time sending one-to-one messages to people that I think are really interesting.

Michael: And just to add to the commenting part. Whenever you leave a comment, don't forget to tag a person because sometimes you just leave thanks and that's it, but you need to tag a person and then say thanks. That would increase the viewership as well. Great.

Colin: Yeah, absolutely.

Michael: So these are interesting tips, by the way. We figured them out just by our sweat and pain, by testing them.

Colin: Yeah. I hope some of your listeners don't have to learn the hard way as I did as well.

Michael: Colin, I appreciate your taking the time to chat with me. My last question would be, can you give me the most hilarious kind of situation or something had happened when you were recording the podcasts or webinars, about the person that was running a show with you, or something that was like super hilarious?

Colin: Yes, I can. The first thing that comes to mind is one time I was hosting a webinar and I was a little sick and I was a little out of it, and I and the guest joined the webinar about 15 minutes early. We don't go live. We use that time to do last minute prep or shake out the cobwebs, get excited about the content, check audiovisual. But I accidentally clicked and made us live early and then a few attendees joined early. So they were watching us prep and all of a sudden I realized, oh, there are people watching us right now. It was a little embarrassing because they were seeing some of the behind the scenes, but it ended up being really fun.

And what we did was we had a conversation with them and I asked the question that I like to ask at parties, which is, all right Michael, you're standing on a 10 meter high dive and you have to dive off of it into the pool below. If you survive, you get to keep what is in the pool and you get to decide what to fill the pool with. So what would you put in the pool? And people try to think of really expensive liquids, so if they dive off and they survive, they get to keep all this expensive stuff in the pool. The best answer that I got actually was horseshoe crab, which is a little crab. It's gross. Apparently they use it to do lab tests for diseases or something like that and it's really expensive. It's like $63,000 US a gallon. So in a pool that's like, I don't know, $6 billion or something like that.

Michael: There were some smart people there.

Colin: Yeah. Yeah. It spurred some interesting conversation that would never have happened if I didn't mess that up. But it was nice. A lot of people messaged me on LinkedIn after that and I think they appreciated getting a little bit of a real moment with us where we weren't just presenting. We weren't in prison presentation mode. We could just be real people with them and kind of hang out and talk about weird stuff. So do you ever have any moments?

Michael: I do have a lot of funny moments probably because I am just new in this, so I'm just starting, so that's why...

Colin: I wouldn't have guessed.

Michael: Again, I'm fucking up every time, but I think that right now people need someone or need to listen or read the content, which is created by people who live in it, or just be genuinely driven by a niche or something instead of taking it very seriously and professionally.

Colin: Yeah.

Michael: So that's why whenever we personally create a blog post or case study or anything, we are doing that for our team to read, to get insights from and to listen to enjoy it, and then we just post it for everyone else to share. And sometimes whenever I do something, any kind of content, I usually post a lot of stuff, a lot of insights that people feel like, okay Mike, you are taking away a lot of stuff that is kind of personal for the companies. Don't you think that your competitors will see that?

And I would say, listen, guys, the next month we figured out something else, something new and then we can post that, and the next month something new as well. So no, the competitors will not keep up with us. That's why we usually tell a lot of shit about our operations, about the hiring, about the on-boarding process, send the templates and yeah. So that's probably the way it works.

Colin: I think that's super smart, and I mean... two things. If you share a secret and your competitor goes, Ooh, I really like that, I want to do that too, that means they're chasing you, which is exactly what you want to cause that means they're always behind you. And the other thing is they can't compete with you on authenticity if you're the one that's being real and people feel like they can approach you, that's an immediate advantage and that can't go understated. It's not going to show up in the books or spreadsheets. You can't measure that. Just everybody knows that's what you want. That's what you want from a company that you work with.

Michael: Just an example of the original content. If you go to our blog, you'll see that every blog post we add a photo or a picture to support the blog, like a profile, a preview picture. And every picture is handmade and everyone has a more kind of futuristic way of explaining what we put on the article. There are no headlines. So from the marketing perspective, you would say, hey Belkins suck because they don't include anything that would tell the reader what the article is about.

But if you go and see the way we structure the picture and with all those lines and futuristic play and for example, if we want to explain cold calls, so we put a fridge and then we put the telephone in the fridge and that's the cold call. A lot of the people that read our blog, they say that it's super hilarious and they love to see the very first or very new picture that we post with our next article. And everyone is unique and we have a dedicated illustrator to come up with this crazy idea for every post. And I think that this will be one of our advantages compared to other companies that post, and this is something that we will be growing and developing even though from the marketing perspective.

Colin: You know, if you just continuously invest in the things that move a metric, [unclear;38:04] because your competitors are doing the same thing. They're investing in things that move metrics, but if you get creative and do things like you guys have those really cool images on your blog. Yeah, that's genius. I love that.

Michael: All right. So, Colin, we need to wrap this up. Is there anything that you wanted to share, like a tip or an idea or advice for people who are going to be listening to this?

Colin: So it varies by the audience, but the one thing I will say is Sales Hacker is a B2B sales community for every sales professional. So if you're an SDR, an account executive, a sales leader, it doesn't matter the size of your company if you're in operations or what, there's something for you on Sales Hacker. So my advice would be to go check it out and see what you can learn. Join a webinar or two, subscribe to the newsletter and if you like it, stick around. If you don't, that's okay. But we think we're pretty good at helping people pick up some skills, learn the newest best practices, techniques, and tools that you can use to make your sales career more successful.

So SalesHacker.com. Just go check it out.

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